Talk:Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

Subdivision of archived discussion
Due to the size of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive (related to the article Swift Boat Veterans for Truth), the archive has been subdivided.

Also see:
 * Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive 1
 * Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive 2
 * Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive 3
 * Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive 4
 * Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive 5

New discussion
Performed extensive update of expired and dead external links. Subdivided Talk page archive into five separate articles (pages 4 and 5 are still too large). Artificial Intelligence 10:13, 16 Mar 2006 (EST)

Introductory
Paragraph 2 contains a link to a Billings Gazette story of Sep 1, 2004, as a source for asserting that SBVT membership comprised "... some of whom did not agree to participate in the project." The clear implication is that SVPT deliberately added names to their membership contrary to the wishes of named individuals. This canard continues to be proferred by anti-SVPT propagandists as recently as here.

What the disseminators of this story neglect to point out is that its premise was debunked by the very same paper the following day in a story entitled "2 swift boat vets' denials false, group claims". In that follow-up article, the author clearly states...


 * "The letter instructs veterans to reply with a 'yes' if they wanted their names listed on the letter that would be sent to Kerry.


 * Two e-mails, faxed to The Gazette, show both men replied with a 'yes.' "

I have, therefore, removed the reference as it is not factual, blatantly misleading and POV. (Did I mention petty as well?) Undoubtedly interested wordsmiths will adjust accordingly. Bingo 12:25, 5 Sep 2006 (EDT)

Mission
An entry states:


 * It also takes issue with Kerry's remarks 30 years ago that "war crimes" were taking place throughout the military conflicts in and about Vietnam. [8] (http://web.archive.org/web/20040826082445/http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/index.php)

This is simply a mis-statement of fact setting up a strawman argument. SBVT does NOT dispute, as the sentence states, the indisputable fact that war crimes occured in Vietnam (just as they have in ALL conflagrations), but rather Kerry's assertion that the application and support of such conduct was systemic and fostered on a day-to-day basis by "all levels of command".

I have edited accordingly. Bingo 13:27, 5 Sep 2006 (EDT)


 * Explanation on Rollback:
 * Insertion of the highlighted words "systemic, policy-induced and taking place throughout the military conflicts in and about Vietnam on a "day-to-day" basis with the direct knowledge and support of officers and men "at all levels if command." do not appear in the SBVT article link. Quoted material is exactly that .. QUOTED .. not addended, as is the case here.


 * If, in fact, and original source for the quote attributed to Kerry can be provided, and not anecdotal commentary, then the rollback can be reversed.


 * Artificial Intelligence 14:01, 5 Sep 2006 (EDT)


 * The statement I amended is an erroneous paraphrase of the SVPT position, nor is it a "quote" from the SVPT reference cited within the paragraph itself. In fact, the SVPT did NOT take the position cited and you will find NO SVPT source to substantiate it.


 * Here is the SVPT position, quoted directly from their website...(emphasis mine)


 * John Kerry's lies about the activities of the Swift boats were part of a larger pattern of deception. As a leader of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), Kerry testified before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations on April 22, 1971, telling the Senators and a national audience that American troops "...had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam..." and accused the U.S. military of committing war crimes "on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."


 * Please note that SBVT utilizes a direct quote from John Kerry's Senate testimony which is readily available ( here among numerous others).


 * I have included the above to cite the quotes in my amended text. Should you again elect to revert, please provide cited sources to substantiate the original text alleging that the SVPT took "issue with Kerry's remarks 30 years ago that 'war crimes' were taking place throughout the military conflicts in and about Vietnam."


 * BTW, I edited 2 different sections as noted above. Please refrain from reverting BOTH without supporting argument for BOTH reverts. I have taken the liberty of indenting your dual revert ...there are 2 edits under discussion...not one. Bingo 14:53, 5 Sep 2006 (EDT)