Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive 5

Due to the size of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive (related to the article Swift Boat Veterans for Truth), the archive has been subdivided.

Also see:
 * Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive 1
 * Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive 2
 * Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive 3
 * Swift Boat Veterans for Truth/Talk page archive 4

Stealing Elections
Will this be another stolen election? In 1972 Nixon became President by secretly (remember the Republican slush fund?) backing McGovern (this divided the Democratic party vote and worked in Nixon's favor). He was caught and ended up resigning. Seems the Republicans are at it again. There are enough "ties" between the so called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and the Bush/Cheney ticket to convince this American that Bush and Cheney are trying to pull the same thing on John Kerry that they successfully pulled on John McCain in 2000. If the Republicans out there are as moral and upright as they claim, they will not let the Bush/Cheney bunch throw anymore dirt on our elections. Two elections in 4 years and both riddled by scandals.....if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck and quacks like a duck....it's probably a duck.

enough
I believe the truth has been so distorted by both sides that these ads cannot be taken seriously. If there is no honor among fellow veterans, what hope does this country have of unifying? We are a divided country by party lines, religion, econony, and now by commrades in arms.

As a veteran in WWII, my dad, a Navy veteran. would be horrified at the idea that any veteran would and did attack another veteran. He died 12 years ago. He always had a flag pole in his yard no matter where he lived. His love of this country and respect for all veterans was instilled in my memories.

It is true--United we stand, divided we fall. Dishonoring a fellow veteran further divides this nation. It is time to let go fo something that happened 35 years ago.

3 Purple Hearts, and didn't miss one day of work?....
Well after reading many of these comments it's obvious that there are a lot of strong opinions here. An old saying comes to mind "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." We all have the right to an opinion and to base that on whatever evidence we feel valid. So here's my .02

I wasn't in Vietnam, I wasn't even born for most of it. However, I've grown up with a deep respect for the military, particularly the Purple Heart. I don't know the details on how they are earned, but I've met some recipients and it was obvious they made a permanent sacrifice to wear that award.

How can one person earn 3 Purple Hearts, in only a 4 month stint, and never even miss a day of work? Is this supposed to imply Kerry is "really tough"? Most of the PH recipients I've seen had NO choice about missing work, they were physically unable to go. Like I said, I don't know the official requirements, but doesn't it seem you'd have to at least miss ONE day due to the injury for which you are awarded the highest medal? For Kerry it seems they gave them out for hangnails and papercuts.

Please, do not mistake this for a degradation of honorable recipients. I've read in another post that this hubbub has belittled all awards, and that is NOT the case. We are talking about a man politically connected his whole life, and one that had clear intention on getting out of Vietnam and denouncing his own countrymen.

I doubt this will change anyone's mind, and for the record I'm not a big Bush fan either, but I hope it at least gives pause to some blind loyalist liberal to at least evaluate the character of the man and his "awards".

We are talking about integrity -
Okay, let's accept he served, maybe or maybe not earned medals, purple hearts etc ... we know he in 1971 called us war criminals, baby killers, rapers etc. and generally aided and abetted our enemies - causing further pain and suffering to POW's, but Lt Kerry also called the national leaders poor, incompetent, etc. in his diatribe before congress.

Anyone realize the fact he was still a commissioned officer in the Reserves [not discharged before from the USNR prior to 1978 - records on this website] and was subject to Article 88? Not exactly officer like behavior or material. Not speaking ill of those leaders appointed over us - including the president, Secretary of defense, etc., is not allowed. Do any of you think we could do that today without being hauled before a commander and held accountable?

V/r Robert Gallagher

No
Hell no;not in the Bush administration!Try protesting anything in this administration and you might as well forget it..........this is becoming more like a dictatorship daily.And I am sick of hearing the whining about the medals.How bout the whining about Bush trying to get out of it?? Get over it and let's start looking at the real issues........jobs,health care,peace etc. Not going to get it with the current admininstration who has flip flopped all over the place only changing their minds when the heat is turned up! Come on fellow americans;it is obvious!


 * Yeah, thats realistic. Why, practically everyone I know has been locked up for saying negative things about Bush... *roll eyes*

there's that republican spin.......and drama.....geez

at least he got a whole sentence which is more than Dubya can do.And even used asteriks.maybe he isn't republican!he he

John Kerry
I have been in the Navy for 18 yrs. I have served in the Gulf war and I have to admit I am ashamed that all of us Navy, airforce, Marines, Army would dishonor any individual that has served and received medals any medals. I personnaly will be voting for Kerry because I refuse to slam a veteran for their honor to our great country. Someday it will come back to haunt the people that started this rubbish. Go Navy!!!!

What if?
If all you George bush hater's could just stop to THINK for a minute and ask yourself, What if JK is a lier? Do you want him for president? And stay focused enough not to automatically say GWB lied because thats your hate comming through again. He did NOT lie! If he did on the Iraq war, than so did all those far left liberals including JK. because they all said he had WMD'S. Even the cowardly French. Liberals are supposed to be for HUMAN RIGHTS but not in the case of the Iraq people. you must be saying that it is OK for them to be slaughtered dailey. By the way, are we not killing terrorists in Iraq like we should be doing? What is are military for if not to end terrorism? I guess GWB could not do anything and keep finding excuses not to, like Clinton did on the Embassy bombing, The first Trade Center bombing, and the USS Cole bombing. Thats how we got to this point. WAKE UP! Are you all afraid of a president who keeps his word? This is real, and who cares if France, Germany, and Russia don't like it. They were in bed with Sadam. They will like us as soon as they need us again like they did when we saved their asses before. As far as these swift boat vetrans are concerned, they are American heros, your hatred for GWB cant let you see through anything. Almost 300 vets are lying and the seven or so for JK are telling the whole truth? I did not here GWB whine and cry about Moveon.org, which is almost 100% spin and lies, Or stupid Michael Moore and his dumbass movie. He thinks we should all sit by while we get taken over by terrorists. When should we get serious? When 3000 more Americans die? Maybe thats not enough. maybe 3 million. Maybe our streets need to look like Israel. The trouble is that liberals don't that could happen.

Sal

how and they hell do dumbasses like sal even manage to turn on their computer
"What is are military for if not to end terrorism?" wow. i could not have said it better myself. Now pack up your backback and lunch bag now Sal cause pre-school starts in a few minutes. A typical republican. Didnt recieve an education because of his rich parents, and has the mental capacity of a godman 3rd grader. "than so did all those far left liberals including JK. because they all said he had WMD'S" ummm first off no. secondly the war on Iraq would have been MUCH different than the fuck up that was done with Bush. ONE, the liberals would have managed to go into it with the united nations on our side (a HUGE advantage in numerous ways), and not just jump in like that trigger happy cheerleader bush. "Even the cowardly French." Oh nice one Sal, are you talking about the same French helped America defeat England and gain independence? Because if you are then you would just be a dumbass. "You must be saying that it is OK for them to be slaughtered daily." OH ya, you nailed it. You know the liberals, always fighting to have innocent human beings be slaughtered for no apparent reason. (Nice spelling of daily by the way, you must have learned that one from dubya himself) it's the liberals that are saying that we should not be slaughtering people daily. "By the way, are we not killing terrorists in Iraq like we should be doing? What is are military for if not to end terrorism?" Yet another difference spotted between conservatives and liberals here. Of course when you are talking about "terrorists", that's referring to anyone who is in possession in Iraq. How many of the people we killed over there have planned and actualized terrorist attacks on America? (This low number is a number that even a mentally challenged conservative like you could count to) "I guess GWB could not do anything and keep finding excuses not to" Jesus if your going to say something at least make it remotely intelligible. And stop your crying about the attacks that happened during Clinton's time, because not only did Clinton serve for twice as long as Bush did (with a large surplus I might add), but none of them compare to 9-11(which is in fact the single deadliest attack on America in all of history). "WAKE UP! Are you all afraid of a president who keeps his word?" you have got to be joking. No honestly, please tell me that was a typo. Because if not then some one needs to castrate you immediately to make sure the thick-headed gene that you have doesn't get passed down to your children. My god, do I need to spoon-feed it to you dipshits, about the only thing that has come out of his mouth that is true is that time he said "you're a girl from the south, so am I." Other than that, it has been 100% bullshit. Some of it, he just flat out lies, and some of it his brain just cant function fast enough to produce sentences in a timely manner, so he starts blabbering incoherent words that turn out to be a lie as well. And just because he is pussy-whipped by vice president (small) dick cheney, doesn't mean he gets off the hook. That half dead fat ass vice republican needs to go back to being a fraud with Haliburton. "This is real, and who cares if France, Germany, and Russia don't like it. They were in bed with Sadam." Yah, since when has Germany and Russia had ANY success in fighting in wars? "As far as these swift boat vetrans are concerned, they are American heros, your hatred for GWB cant let you see through anything." Wow you babbling, stupid prick. First off, its "veterans" and "heroes" you illiterate fuck. DEFINATE heroes, speaking out against a man they only met for a span of 1 or 2 days, because they felt like selling the last shred of decency they had to rich conservatives. (The other decency they lost when they were born). I don't care how unpatriotic this sounds, but those fucking veterans should have died back in Vietnam, because no matter what Kerry did there, he was fighting for his country, and when he came back he fought to get them home. All they can do is sit back and complain. I am embarrassed to be in the same country as those diaper wearing, senile veterans who are willing to bash another veteran for publicity and/or money. It sickens me. "Or stupid Michael Moore and his dumbass movie." Yet another stoke of brilliance shown here. He must have forgotten that Michael Moore's "dumbass movie" is the highest grossing documentary of all time, and when people claim that it is not true, they never seem to be able to pin point an actual part that was not true. "He thinks we should all sit by while we get taken over by terrorists." We wouldn't have even been attacked by terrorists in the first place if the fucking bush administration had read the damn update on terrorism when they were supposed to. Maybe it wasn't clear enough for them, when the title said "terrorists likely to attack". "When 3000 more Americans die? Maybe thats not enough. maybe 3 million. Maybe our streets need to look like Israel. The trouble is that liberals don't that could happen." I don't even know what to say. Maybe if you fucking wrote in English we could read your godamn falsified, dipshit theories. I support abortion, so that brains like yours are just stemmed and halted at an early age. So just do us a favor Sal and abort yourself now, so we don't feel bad about forgetting about you the first time.

To Mr. unsigned
Well now educated one, let me examine your letter. First of all the first thing an intelligent liberal does is slander! the second is profanity! Very good. Ma Ma must have taught you that. Next line, " so did all those far left Liberals including JK because they all said he had WMD'S" your reply? "umm first off no. Now we are Lying, there is a VIDEO tape of JK saying that, but certainly facts mean nothing. Just say it and the proof goes away. JK said before he was running for president that Sadam has WMD's and must be delt with. Deal with, it it was said. Next we have "The war on Iraq would have been much different than the fuck up that was done with Bush ONE" Question: which war are we talking about now? If you are talking about the first war we could not just go in and kill Sadam because we were there, are you suggesting that?

Next, what the French were and what they are now is two different things. I suppose that's not true either. They were stealing OUR money on the food for oil program and had illegal dealings with Sadam. This is another fact.

Next, your run on paragraph about something about liberals and stopping the slaughtering on a daily basis is so badly written I imagine only you know what it says. ( I know I'm a dumbass ) See I can write like a liberal too.

Next you say we are not killing terrorists in Iraq. All I can say is WOW!!! Do you think there our buddies killing our soldiers.

Next I can't help but think you are more worried about the Iraq's than our own, or are you one? I can't tell.

Did you say stop crying about the attacks that happened during Clinton's time? WHY?????. Let's just forget it? attacks on our Embassy (dead people) The first WTC bombing (dead people) USS Cole (dead Sailors). By all means lets give the liberal a pass and move on!

continuation to Mr unsigned
Next Who kept his word? Clinton? He said the people who did the attack's on his watch would be brought to justice. Where are they? What did he do? Oh thats right, he released some terrorists before he left office.

There is so much babbling and profanity for a while it does not even deserve comment. It's just liberal talking points with no proof or facts.

Yes of course those Swift boat veterans should have died in Vietnam. Spoken like a true American. I'm getting more convinced your not one.

Next, we would not have been attacked on 9-11 if Clinton did hes job. they would not have been there to attack.

Next, Michael Moores High grossing movie, That makes him intelligent.

In ending I would like to share something I read.

PROFANITY IS THE EFFORT OF A FEEBLE MIND TRYING TO EXPRESS ITSELF FORCIBLY

Wondering???
I am wondering if these two people actually research any of these things that they are spewing;or if they just blindly read one article from the press or see one clip of some journalists report and just automatically believe it!These two need to get informed!

JK did say there were WMD's because he believed the administration was telling the truth about them.(Guess he didn't learn from the Vietnam administration)Hello!!!!!!!

Clinton didn't do anything??Get informed buddy!Check both sides of reporting on this and then draw a conclusion;read!

The french had illegal dealings with Sadam?SO DID WE LONG AGO;again read!

Stealing our money? What do you call what Halliburton and their subsidiaries were doing? READ!

If someone came to MY country and was at my doorstep with a gun;and I did not know what was going on or did not have the means to be truly informed;you bet I would fight to the death for my home and country!Theres a difference between finding and killing terrorists and killing innocent people who think they are being invaded by another Hitler;which is what most of these people were told months and months before and while we are there..............most are not privelage to the information that we have

What did Clinton do? You obviously have a computer;so before you spew things like what did he do;READ and you will see what he tried to do.I'm sure he would of tried to do more if he had gotten a letter with the title;Terrorists Planning to Attack.........

The Swift Boat Veterans have to live the rest of their lives with what they did;making a mockary out of every medal ever given to our brave soldiers and medals still being awarded for the Iraq war........Who will not question now every time they hear of a medal being given.........did they really earn it? Not fair to our soldiers at all.These reports by SWIFTYS are almost proven not to be true by now;but republicans will still ride this ass because they can't come up with very much positive about the way Bush has handled the war,the economy,the numerous scandals that keep popping up;the SWIFTS are all they got right now.........OH and the people that died at the Word Trade Centers.....

I agree profanity is not a plus;but reading and being informed is......Hope you both do so.............

SAD STATE

SAD
OH AND CAN WE PLEASE MAKE TEXAS THEIR OWN COUNTRY LIKE THEY WANTED????THE TIES BETWEEN THEM AND THESE SWIFT BOAT VETERANS AND THE ADMINISTRATION MAKE ME ASHAMED OF THIS STATE! A BUNCH OF RICH REDNECK REPUBLICANS AGAIN BUYING THEIR WAY INTO THE WHITE HOUSE!

Re. Wondering    from Sal
Finally A democrat with an honest debate!

I do read. Admittedly right leaning books. like Dereliction of Duty, Slander, and Deliver us From Evil. Before you say "no wonder", I must ask Did you read them?

The administration, I do belive, did tell the truth based on the information it was given. It was from Intellegence from other sources than out own admin. After all he did have them or he could not have used them on his own people.

I have been trying to find what Clinton did to fight terrorism, but honesty cant find anything. I would welcome you to lead me there.

I do belive however that GWB did not realize that there would be so many people that would resist. But certainly not all of them. He was thinking like an American instead of a people who no nothing but death and destruction. I belived myself they would all welcome us to be free from that murdering savage.

I Don't hate JK. But I don't belive he is an honest man for many reasons. I listen to him and all he says is he can do it better and smarter, but never says EXACTLY how. And his senate record sucks! He must know that, He skipped over it entirely at the convention.

Thanks, Sal

Whats with all the draft dodging issues?
I did not here it being a big deal when Clinton did it! There are all kinds of sources on this. At least Bush went in the National Guard. Clinton left the country.

Okay Sal
I am starting to believe the guy cussing you out!

You go to search-type in Clinton Administration War on Terror-and guess what-you've got all sorts of information.I'll just give you one to make it easy for you since you obviously are computer illiterate:

http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/Clinton_and_Terrorism.html

The Clinton Wars" Excerpts: How the GOP Undercut Clinton's Efforts to Fight Terrorism

If you need anymore help finding information;let me know.And I am not a democrat;I am a proud independent who would vote for anyone but Bush at this point after researching both sides for months and finding impartial and FACTUAL articles and interviews.Try it sometime;you might be surprized!

SAD

Giuliani Charges Lack Context

By Glenn Kessler Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, August 31, 2004; 6:44 PM

Former New York mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani made a number of specific attacks based on statements allegedly made by Democratic presidential nominee John F. Kerry in his speech to the Republican National Convention Monday night. But Giuliani's description of those comments often lacked context.

For example, Giuliani said: "In October of 2003, he told an Arab American institute in Detroit that a security barrier separating Israel from the Palestinian territories was a barrier to peace. Okay. Then a few months later, he took exactly the opposite position." The context: When Kerry made his statement about a "barrier to peace," he was referring to, as he put it, the "Israeli government's decision to build the barrier off of the Green Line [the de facto boundary between Israel and the West Bank] -- cutting deep into Palestinian areas."

Kerry's stance was similar to the position taken by President Bush a few months earlier, in July 2003, when he said in the Rose Garden: "I think the wall is a problem, and I discussed this with [Israeli Prime Minister] Ariel Sharon. It is very difficult to develop confidence between the Palestinians and Israel with a wall snaking through the West Bank."

The Bush administration has spent months negotiating with the Israelis the precise route of the fence. Both Kerry and Bush opposed involvement of the International Court of Justice in the matter.

Giuliani: "I quote John Kerry: 'I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.' "

The context: The administration's request for the funding was controversial, even among Republicans, and various attempts were made to split off $67 billion for the troops from the $20 billion for reconstruction, or to turn the $20 billion grant into a loan, or to fund some of the spending by raising taxes on incomes greater than $312,000. Kerry voted for a different version of the bill, just as Bush had vowed to veto a version that originally passed in the Senate that would have converted half of the Iraq rebuilding plan into a loan.

Giuliani: "Just a few months ago, John Kerry kind of leaked out that claim that certain foreign leaders who opposed our removal of Saddam Hussein prefer him."

The context: The reporter who provided a pool report on Kerry's comments at a fundraiser in March later said she had mistranscribed the comments, and Kerry actually did not use the word "foreign." He also did not refer to Saddam Hussein. Speaking to supporters who noted the opposition to Bush overseas, Kerry said: "I've been hearing it, I'll tell you. The news, the coverage in other countries, the news in other places. I've met more leaders who can't go out and say it all publicly, but boy they look at you and say, you gotta win this, you gotta beat this guy, we need a new policy, things like that."

From the full conversation, it appears clear Kerry is speaking about dislike of Bush and his policies by leaders overseas, but not necessarily the invasion of Iraq.

Giuliani: "He even, at one point, declared himself an antiwar candidate, and now he says he's a pro-war candidate."

The context: Giuliani's statement appears derived from an appearance by Kerry in January in which he was askedon MSNBC's "Hardball" if he was one of the candidates "unhappy with the war has been fought, the way it's been fought . . . are you one of the antiwar candidates?" He answered: "I am. Yes. In the sense that I don't believe the president took to us war as he should have, yes. Absolutely. Do I think this president violated his promises to America? Yes, I do, Chris. Was there a way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable? You bet there was and we should have done it right."

Chris Mathews, host of "Hardball," has protested to the Bush campaign the use of the statement that Kerry called himself an antiwar candidate, saying the remarks were taken out of context.

THE REAL TRUTH The Vietnam War was pure hell. The atrocities that have been spoken about did occur, maybe not by you directly, but not acknowledging them is pure denial and you know it. We should not blame the brave soldiers who fought and gave their lives because their country called on them. However the politicians are a different story. They will manipulate, spin and outright lie if it suits them. This not limited to either party by the way. Spin, selective truth, deception by omission has become standard operating procedure in the political arena. I have no tolerance for anyone, who uses another's distinguished military record has a tool to try and discredit what is above reproach, By the way I am not a Kerry supporter. Were the democrats doing this I would write as well. The mud slinging has gone too far and frankly I am tired of it. The reality is most of us have had it with type of politics. Clearly this is an attempt to discredit someone in their areas of strength. Lets face it, I do not hear war hero from anyone discussing George W's war record. That's because he does not have one. No doubt that the Democrats are playing with the same strategic rhetoric in trying to discredit the President, but his is clearly politics at its worst. These vets are upset because of John Kerry's comments when testifying to congress. GET OVER IT! Stop playing politics. Don't hide the fact you are associated with the Bush campaign. You can't even convince the most ardent Republican's that this isn't election related. You have dishonored your service to this country by using it in such a manipulative manner and you have degraded yourselves to common spin-doctors of the political machine. You have also disgraced the other veterans by using this in such a despicable manner. I have voted Republican; this time you have made me very unsure that this President, who stands behind the flag, and yet is willing to disgrace it in this manner. Stop it, tell us what you are going to do, how will you make things better, not this transparent attempt to circumvent the campaign finance laws. This will backfire.

I Surrender
I was sent to a Anti-Bush Site to find something positive about Clinton. I quit!

NO ONE DIED WHEN CLINTON LIED!

THE REAL TRUTH The Vietnam War was pure hell. The atrocities that have been spoken about did occur, maybe not by you directly, but not acknowledging them is pure denial and you know it. We should not blame the brave soldiers who fought and gave their lives because their country called on them. However the politicians are a different story. They will manipulate, spin and outright lie if it suits them. This not limited to either party by the way. Spin, selective truth, deception by omission has become standard operating procedure in the political arena. I have no tolerance for anyone, who uses another's distinguished military record has a tool to try and discredit what is above reproach, By the way I am not a Kerry supporter. Were the democrats doing this I would write as well. The mud slinging has gone too far and frankly I am tired of it. The reality is most of us have had it with type of politics. Clearly this is an attempt to discredit someone in their areas of strength. Lets face it, I do not hear war hero from anyone discussing George W's war record. That's because he does not have one. No doubt that the Democrats are playing with the same strategic rhetoric in trying to discredit the President, but his is clearly politics at its worst. These vets are upset because of John Kerry's comments when testifying to congress. GET OVER IT! Stop playing politics. Don't hide the fact you are associated with the Bush campaign. You can't even convince the most ardent Republican's that this isn't election related. You have dishonored your service to this country by using it in such a manipulative manner and you have degraded yourselves to common spin-doctors of the political machine. You have also disgraced the other veterans by using this in such a despicable manner. I have voted Republican; this time you have made me very unsure that this President, who stands behind the flag, and yet is willing to disgrace it in this manner. Stop it, tell us what you are going to do, how will you make things better, not this transparent attempt to circumvent the campaign finance laws. This will backfire.

Vote for Kerry and Edwards
...after you vote against them. I would as soon vote for Hussien/bin Laden. I can fully document the foregoing statement.

-- relocating speculative off-topic comment from article page -- --Bob Burton 19:25, 4 Sep 2004 (EDT)

Ollie North on Kerry
The recent article by LTC (Ret) Oliver North (of Iran-Contra fame) may represent a shift in the focus of the anti-Kerry ads of 527s, and it will be interesting to see if the SBVT follows his lead. He has "asked" that Kerry apologize for the statements he made in his 1971 testimony before the Senate. It's a nice trap... If Kerry apologizes (as North points out Jane Fonda did), he may lose support of liberals and is accused anew of being a "flip-flopper." If he refuses to apologize, he is potentially at risk of losing support of some vets.

Oh brother
Oh brother;someone listening to Oliver North?? Another republican administration that did everything in secret and lied to the American public as long as they could til they were cornered?? Come on and give me a break!Am I the only american left that believes that the government is by the people and for the people?

And why should Kerry apologize for saving numerous lives by testifying against the war and helping bring it to a end early.Does anyone but me read the numerous postings by vietnam veterans about the very things Kerry testified about?

Absolute bullshit that North has the gall to ask that Kerry apologize!

Why should kerry apologize?
Maybe you would have a different opinion if you were a POW at the time.

Something funny about this??
Since such a big deal is being made of these Swift Boat Veteran ads;I suggest that the democrats start responding with facts of missing documents for Bush's service;starting with this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5922174/

Then throw in the guy that recently said he helped Bush and other sons of the top 5% income bracket also get out of their duties in Texas.Now you have the Swifties and the people supporting it in Texas,Bush who is in Texas,the guy who helped Bush shirk his duties in Texas;anyone see something wrong with this picture??????????

One big difference
Kerry testified for the other side. He was an officer in the United States Military. He was a hero to the enemy. Don't you Bush haters get it? He should have been brought up on charges. He is a big phoney. Also there are countless articals about Clinton draft dodging, but that has never been an issue. He left the country.

Another big difference
But getting special treatment in the military because of daddys friends is honorable? Pleasssssssssse Doesn't make sense unless you're one of the sons that grew up with a silver spoon in your hand and it seems normal to you.

As for Kerry:

The citizen who sees his society's democratic clothes being worn out and does not cry it out, is not a patriot, but a traitor. - Mark Twain

CLINTON WAS A INTELLIGENT MAN! BIG DIFFERENCE FROM GEORGE!

Vietnam Veterans of America
I don't know if you are aware that John Kerry was one of the co-founders of the VVA (Vietnam Veterans of America) in 1979. That proves that he has been backing the veterans since he came back from Vietnam.

That organization has helped thousands upon thousands of veterans.

I don't understand why the media hasn't picked up on it.

http:vva.org

WHO ARE THE VIETNAM VETERANS OF AMERICA?

Founded in 1978, Vietnam Veterans of America, Inc. is the only national Vietnam veterans organization congressionally chartered and exclusively dedicated to Vietnam-era veterans and their families. VVA is organized as a not-for-profit corporation and is tax-exempt under Section 501(c)(19) of the Internal Revenue Service Code.

VVA'S FOUNDING PRINCIPLE "Never again shall one generation of veterans abandon another."

VVA's goals are to promote and support the full range of issues important to Vietnam veterans, to create a new identity for this generation of veterans, and to change public perception of Vietnam veterans. SPECIAL PROGRAMS Government Relations Advocacy on the range of veterans issues. National Task Force for Homeless Veterans. Health care for veterans, including disabled veterans. Issues pertaining to women and minority veterans. National scholarship fund. Program providing assistance to veterans seeking benefits/services from the government.

FUNDING Vietnam Veterans of America relies totally on private contributions for its revenue. VVA does not receive any funding from federal, state, or local governments.

To the Vets who still support Bush

One thing I know about the Vietnam Vet is that they hate to be wrong about anything. I know I still have a hard time admitting that I'm wrong even when it's obvious. I think it's because when we got to Nam things didn't add up. I wasn't in country a month when I realized that. I was stopped on the road between LZ Sharon and Quang Tri waiting for the grunts to clean up an ambush. There was a Catholic priest standing there. I asked him what was going on and he told me about the ambush. I asked him "What are we doing here?" He said "I don't know. My people have lived like this for two thousand years. They will live like this for the next two thousand years. It doesn't matter what kind of government there is." He said "It's wrong for you Americans to be over here." I've spent my life trying to justify that what I did in Vietnam was right. The innocent people I killed haunt me everyday. I ended up with P.T.S.D. I still see someone at the V.A. who helps me as best as she can. I still take Trazadone so I can sleep at night. It helps me with the nightmares…Sometimes. I enlisted in '67 and volunteered for Nam. I agonized over my decision for months. I was aware of the anti-war sentiment in the U.S. The fact that my father and all the other men in my family had gone to their wars convinced me that I was doing the right thing. I watched Robert McNamara that day when he had his pointer in his hand giving his "Gulf of Tonkin" speech. I believed him. He lied to us. I was enraged when thirty years later he admitted it. Our government lied to us. The government (Bush and Cheney) lied to us again about going to war. Plain and simple. The government lied to us time after time. Our thirst for revenge has clouded our sensibilities on what is right and what is wrong. I believe that's why the Vietnam Vets still support Bush. They don't want to be wrong again. It stirs up to much pain about our war. I think every Vietnam Vet that was in combat has P.T.S.D. to a certain extent… just enough to cling to another lie. The outrage from 9/11 has distorted or morphed into this "kill'em all, it's okay to torture, hide the facts, don't let anyone see our dead, use of deadly depleted uranium shells, stockpiling the sick and wounded in Germany and Fort Stewart" it's all wrong. It does not matter how hard we cling to a lie or how much we wish it was true…it's still a lie. Now we have Veteran against Veteran. How sick is that? There has to be more than political motivation behind these Swift Boat Attacks. To attack John Kerry who did his duty and who is not a coward is wrong. He had the guts to testify before congress about his beliefs. Who knows how many lives he saved by helping to shorten the war. He did what most of us didn't and still don't have the guts to do…stand up for what is right. So he is attacked by these P.T.S.D. idiots who don't want to admit that we were wrong. Vietnam was wrong; Iraq is wrong, simple deal. Does anyone really believe that we would be in Iraq if they didn't have oil? Does 9/11 give us the right to rape and torture? Doesn't that make us as bad as the terrorists? Killing people for democracy, give me a break. To my brother Vets I say get your heads out of the sand, stop being anal retentive and study the facts. Look for news outside of FOX and CNN. Get on the computer and study Buzzflash and Truthout. Make an informed decision on November 2nd. Don't misunderstand me. I'd love to get binLaden in my sights just once. I'm still an expert shot. It's a disgrace that we let him get away. Instead we went to Iraq. Why? We see Bush joke about WMD's, saying binLaden isn't an important priority anymore. Why? Give the Taliban forty million dollars. Why? Study the facts and you'll see that Iraq was the wrong war…Again

Tim Adams 5922 N.E. 111th St. Vancouver, WA 98686

tadams128ATcomcast.net (sub @ for AT) -

Bush A Coward
President Bush joined the National Guard to keep from serving in the vietnam war. How can a true patriot vote for such a coward. John Kerry served proudly and I as a retired veteran am proud of him. Because he voiced his opinion against the atrocoties committed in Vietnam, doesn't make him a traitor, on the contrary, it makes him a real patriot. Those veterans who claim Kerry betrayed them are just a bunch of Bush supporters and in my opinion are the real traitors. Look at what is happening in Iraq, a war we should not be involved in. Our young men and women are dying for the sake of making a dollar for Bush, Cheney, Haliburton and the other big business energy companies involved. Swift Boat Veteraans for Truth, GO TO HELL.

Kerry -please release your records
Why has John Kerry still not filed a standard form 108 to release ALL of his military records?

More to the point, why hasn't he asked Americans why so many of them continue to support more wars, more deficits, more pillaging of the environment, fewer jobs, less education, less healthcare, and more attacks upon their freedoms of dissent and privacy. (i.e. the Bush agenda)

C'mon, Bush is no 'Coward'!
You say "President Bush joined the National Guard to keep from serving in the vietnam war. How can a true patriot vote for such a coward." -- do your research... He was flying one of the more dangerous jets; similar casualty rate to those on the ground in 'nam. His unit was readying to go to 'nam. He flew way MORE than required (300% more! Did you know that? Sure, a few months at the end were 'low' because he had so much more than he needed)... was a pretty hot-shot pilot. Does that sound like a coward? The only thing that took him out: his time was up. So compare Bush's YEARS of dangerous flying, with no grandstanding, to Kerry's MONTHS of on-ground service (during which time he managed to make promotional videos of himself for future use! Amazing...) At the very least, Bush's service was every bit the equal of Kerry's. And no controversy about being the guy who wrote his own medal report about rescuing a guy in the midst of 1 1/2 hrs of live fire... that somehow put nary a bullet hole into any boats, nor was anybody wounded...