Talk:L. Ron Hubbard

Hubbard's death is not a matter of a number of critics, but in fact, is a matter of verifiable autopsy, as shown on the website I linked to. Insinuating that he didn't die with the drug in him, or that it was mere speculation and rumor mongering is quite patently untrue. It states that he died with the drug in him here. His own private Doctor admits as much here. This is not up to debate. Period.

User:SiberioS

Although I am not conversant with Hubbard or Scientology to any degree, I do recall reading about various aspects of his life. While hoping that I am not making a "foray" into troubled waters, I would like to offer the following observations:
 * 1) This article is framed almost entirely in the passive voice, as though events happened "to" Hubbard and were out of his control. He did not strike me as that type of individual.
 * 2) The article rests on the authority of two Scientology "debunker" websites: www.ronthewarhero.com and www.clambake.org (Operation Clambake: "undressing Scientology"). These (debunking) cannot be the only ones and there obviously are any number of websites and articles that have been written about him -- both pro and con.
 * 3) This would appear to be a very selective and cursory view of a very complex subject.
 * 4) As for the manner of Hubbard's death, the use of "mind drugs" would come as no surprise, as ....
 * 5) There is an exhaustive amount of information, as well as numerous other aspects, to Hubbard besides his questionable military career and Sea Org. For example, much has been written about his connections to the U.S. government, as well as Scientology, and brainwashing and mind control, a discussion of which would be interesting given the current abuses of those techniques at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. I would have to search through old files, but I do recall that Hubbard is credited with some pretty freaky mind control manipulations, including remote viewing, that are yet heralded in the intelligence community.
 * 6) If my memory serves me, regarding Scientology, is there not a legal matter regarding the org's publications and Hubbard's estate? I did not see any mention of that.
 * 7) On the housekeeping side of things, both articles could use a little tidying up.


 * Re #4 above: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Hubbard%2C+%22mind+control%22&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&fr=FP-tab-web-t&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8 =Yahoo! search "Hubbard", "mind control"
 * Re #5 above: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Hubbard%2C+Scientology%2C+estate&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&fl=0&x=wrt =Yahoo! search Hubbard, Scientology, estate

This is not, I repeat NOT, my subject. But a more rounded and comprehensive view would seem in order ... IMO Artificial Intelligence 07:14, 13 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Unfortunatly I haven't had much more time to add a more exhaustive look at Hubbard's life. Hence its seemingly small focus. Theres an incredible amount of ground to cover, I just haven't gotten around to it.

In response to a couple issues you raise;

 As for the manner of Hubbard's death, the use of "mind drugs" would come as no surprise, as ....

Actually, it should, since as I mention in the article and here, Scientology is unilaterally against such drugs, period. It is in fact, a complete and utter rejection of psychology and psychiatry. This is the basis of Dianetics, and its expounded further in the Church's teachings.

''There is an exhaustive amount of information, as well as numerous other aspects, to Hubbard besides his questionable military career and Sea Org. For example, much has been written about his connections to the U.S. government, as well as Scientology, and brainwashing and mind control, a discussion of which would be interesting given the current abuses of those techniques at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. I would have to search through old files, but I do recall that Hubbard is credited with some pretty freaky mind control manipulations, including remote viewing, that are yet heralded in the intelligence community. ''

In fact, Hubbard has little or no real connection to the US Military, outside of his brief service in the Navy. In fact, quite the oppisite is true, as indicated by the bust of the Guardian Office (something I talk about). Time and time again he offered his "Services" to the American government, be it FBI or CIA, and was routinely rejected on the grounds of basically being full of it. You can find links to many de-classified memos and notes regarding Hubbard on various websites, some of which I link to.

As for any real or perceived mind control techniques, one I guess could assume that due to the cult like nature of Scientology, and his own personality cult, that he had a certain amount of persuasiveness and ability to reel people in. But there is little to no evidence that any of the powers that he was rumoured to have were actually provable.

''If my memory serves me, regarding Scientology, is there not a legal matter regarding the org's publications and Hubbard's estate? I did not see any mention of that.''

The estate, as it were, is controlled by the Church, via David Miscavige, the current head. I can't remember the name of the holding company that oversees Hubbard's writings, but it is basically staffed by Scientologists as well as being controlled legally by Miscavige. Part of the reason for this is due to the sect rivalry between the Sea Org and the Guardian's Office in the late 70's that ended in the dissolution of the GO upon the arrest of Mary Sue Hubbard (head of GO) and a number of other Scientologists. With the copyrights under lock and key of Sea Org members, the potential of any other sect rising up is pretty much null and void. Any attempt to deviate will see the revoking of use of Hubbard's writings. Such an action would be a death knell to any branch.

Sometime I will have to sit down and add portions relating to his intervening years, as well as add to portions.

User:SiberioS